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Author Topic: When is cheap too cheap?  (Read 2033 times)

Offline Snowman

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When is cheap too cheap?
« on: October 07, 2013, 11:08:50 AM »
I recently bought some wheatbelt stimi's for a steal. I'd been chasing tri Wheaties for a while, and always keen for a nice normal wheatie as well. I have to admit I was excited by the idea of obtaining some snakes at such a cheap price.

What I hadn't considered though was the people who have put a lot of work into breeding particular specimens and them being undercut buy other sellers. Once a low price is set do people expect that as the normal price?

We saw ARC selling womas for $350 recently a new low price I thought at the time.

Is it part of the hobby that prices will fall like over east?

Should we try to keep prices high?

Should the royalties on Wild taking be higher to stop people raping the wild populations?

What are peoples thoughts on selling animals cheaply?

Offline stu

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Re: When is cheap too cheap?
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2013, 12:16:21 PM »
Eastern states market is fantastic if dealing with reputable long time breeders who will pretty much warranty the animals they supply because they've got pride in their name and what they produce. Base economics doesn't change regardless of the commodity, supply and demand will always dictate the value. Slight variance will occur with certain breeders due to the quality of their name built up over many years and in turn the quality of their animals. Elapids are very cheap over east yet the top breeders still sell out easily with people on wait lists for many of their animals. Prices will fall with the growth of the hobby and rightly so but their is certainly a niche here waiting to be filled for high end animals. With the embargo on python imports diversity here still needs to be obtained via wild caught specimens. The liberties allowed on the east coast allow some exceptional and diverse animals to be bred.

Offline adderboy

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Re: When is cheap too cheap?
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2013, 02:32:12 PM »
I recently bought some wheatbelt stimi's for a steal. I'd been chasing tri Wheaties for a while, and always keen for a nice normal wheatie as well. I have to admit I was excited by the idea of obtaining some snakes at such a cheap price.

What I hadn't considered though was the people who have put a lot of work into breeding particular specimens and them being undercut buy other sellers. Once a low price is set do people expect that as the normal price?

We saw ARC selling womas for $350 recently a new low price I thought at the time.

Is it part of the hobby that prices will fall like over east?

Should we try to keep prices high?

Should the royalties on Wild taking be higher to stop people raping the wild populations?

What are peoples thoughts on selling animals cheaply?

Hi, Trent
Some interesting issues in there.  To be honest, I don't think prices can be kept artificially high, always remembering different people might sell for different reasons.  Prices were high initially given the supply problems and fewer breeders, but things were expected to change and they have - albeit slowly.

However, you raised one query in there which has become a hobby horse of mine.  For a long time now I have believed that SWCPs and Stimmis should be removed from the takers list of species - or at least heavily restricted.  There is no reason for taking these now, given the numbers being bred.  Same possibly applies to womas, but I'll let that one slide for the moment given they are still Cat 4 so there are naturally fewer held.

The reason for takers permits was to establish captive populations.  That has well and truly been achieved.  So why are we still permtting them to be taken from the bush?  The ONLY valid reason I can see for any future taking is to maintain a strong captive gene pool,  but if we don't have enough diversity of genetics already there's something amiss.

An added bonus to this would be an encouragement for breeders. 

I really think this needs to be considered.  Continued taking from the wild is not justifiable.  Maybe WAHS could suggest this to DPaW as part of a trade to have other species added?

S
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 03:07:35 PM by adderboy »

Offline Snowman

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Re: When is cheap too cheap?
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2013, 04:41:51 PM »
I can't find it. I'm sure WAHS asked for some species to be taken of the wild takers list. And DEC responded with a no.
Mike might be able to dig up the exact submission request and response.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 04:54:45 PM by Snowman »

Offline adderboy

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Re: When is cheap too cheap?
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2013, 05:12:15 PM »
If that's the case I'd love to know why they said no.  Continued wild harvest is something I would have thought DPaW would be against, especially after a sustainable population of captive-bred animals is established (which is clearly true re stimis and SWCPs).  Maybe I should write to my Member of Parliament!

S


Offline Alchemy

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Re: When is cheap too cheap?
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2013, 07:32:42 PM »
I find it interesting I bough up the subject once in a post on face book about getting a Takers Lience and someone took a swing saying I shouldn't, get one to feather my own collection, Because I wanted it to chase Butleri, then I read somewhere tonight a collector harvesting from the wild for there Breeding Program. Why is the difference it's the collectors right to sell what they see for but the truely amazing stuff gets added to there collections, this happens in any wild harvesting industrie. Get you
A little down sometimes when there is a form you really want but will never have. I have wanted a Black head with a Jet black head White body an Chocolate Brown bars. I know at least 2 takers have these but wont sell. They both say they are in there collections.

Offline stu

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Re: When is cheap too cheap?
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2013, 07:56:23 PM »
Nobody took a " swing " mate, I was letting you know that I looked in to it and was told they wouldn't be given out just for someone to "feather their nest" and were given to people on the premise of supplying the broad spectrum on the list to the keeping fraternity. Thought you'd appreciate the heads up if you were going down that path? Of course Takers are going to keep the really speccy animals they come across. Dave could confirm but I dare say the real special finds are in the extreme minority and some personal reward for years spent in the field. Everything has a price, put the cash up and if they won't part with what they've got they'll certainly have incentive to look for what you want. Did you get your Vens license?

Offline Snowman

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Re: When is cheap too cheap?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2013, 08:01:49 PM »
You also can only collect on private property that you have signed permission from the owners. If you don't have properties that have the BHP's you are after or butleri then what are you going to do? Most takers are locals who have a re-pore with their community and land owners trust them enough to collect a few specimens.

Offline Tafkas1

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Re: When is cheap too cheap?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2013, 08:02:49 PM »
Alchemy, It may be a takers right to sell their animals for whatever ever price they set but it is still possible to act unethically even if acting within the rules.
The fact is most takers are now prepared to invest their time and money into animals already in the system, thus relieving pressure from wild stocks and habitat.
If rumours are correct the current influx of wheatbelt stimmies at such low prices is due to unscrupulous taking practices. and for that reason would be a kick in the teeth for those putting the effort into quality captive bred specimens.
I would much rather a taker remove one specimen for a breeding program than remove 30 animals to dump on the market at low price.
I'm with Adderboy, Stimmies and Carpets should at the least have restrictions in place or even be removed from the takers list.

My thoughts on cheap animals- Great, if their priced for the right reason. My experience of trying to sell cheap animals is one of suspicion, I couldn't even give 3 Knob tails away.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 08:07:35 PM by Tafkas1 »

Offline Alchemy

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Re: When is cheap too cheap?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2013, 08:13:46 PM »
Sorry my wording is a bit out tonight Stu I did take what you said on board thank you Again, it's hard working nights I have slept for 2 days nearly. I haven't done the paper work yet I needed a spare enclosure to show them then they went on leave. Adrian said he is fine once the locals give the Knod of approval. I had access to private land out the goldfields, Also a lot in the great southern Through shooting Roos. So I looked into the takers Lience to get stuff that isn't commonly collected King Skinks, Southern Bob Tails, Tigers, Frogs (Western Spoted), Butleri. Prices have dropped a lot since I took a break Woma's when I first got in were $6000 each a colour lacking one was $4000 now look. I believe Stimi's an Carpets should have a hold placed on them there is no need to collect them anymore.   

Offline Snowman

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Re: When is cheap too cheap?
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2013, 08:19:34 PM »
Alchemy, It may be a takers right to sell their animals for whatever ever price they set but it is still possible to act unethically even if acting within the rules.
The fact is most takers are now prepared to invest their time and money into animals already in the system, thus relieving pressure from wild stocks and habitat.
If rumours are correct the current influx of wheatbelt stimmies at such low prices is due to unscrupulous taking practices. and for that reason would be a kick in the teeth for those putting the effort into quality captive bred specimens.
I would much rather a taker remove one specimen for a breeding program than remove 30 animals to dump on the market at low price.
I'm with Adderboy, Stimmies and Carpets should at the least have restrictions in place or even be removed from the takers list.
Whilst I agree with what you are saying. It was impossible for me to get a three coloured wheat belt. Who is doing the captive breeding of these and sharing/selling them? I offered $1000 a specimen at one stage and still couldn't get anyone to part with them. I've seen quite a few in peoples collections in WA. Every time they were takers, or worked at pet stores and got dibs on stock coming in. When I got a pair from this taker who is being turned into a villan, he had maybe 10 stimis. Does anyone know how many he has taken? I'm not even sure they are all wheatbelts. Another taker I know has also been getting a few wheatbelts recently and I also bought one of his. I know he is taking by the book, getting land owners permission and not destroying the outcrops and he has a few for sale too....  The guy I bought off was leaving for a holiday or something and wanted to move stock and have nothing left to look after. I understand he wanted money for going away and also to pay royalties he owed. I think there is a lot of fact missing and I'm reserving judgement until I hear what is exactly happening.
I resent any accusations that I shouldn't have bought them cheaply. He supplied me with something no one else could even when I offered decent money.
Gary Davies is the only other taker who has supplied me with decent wheatbelt animals. It was Gary made me think about the whole ethics of what is happening and the reason I posted for peoples opinions.

I have to admit I'm not sure where I stand either.
I'm opposed to wheatbelt destruction.
I'm for nicer specimens in the pet trade as we see over east and in a handful of wa collections.
I'm for lower prices to make the reptiles more available to youth and people with less disposable income.
I'm for captive breeding, but there are a lot of restrictions in place by DPaw, such as limits on clutches sold.
I'm for colour morphs that are not commonly represented. A taker NOR is getting some very nice SWCP lately, colours that havent been established in the hobby yet.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 08:24:39 PM by Snowman »

Offline stu

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Re: When is cheap too cheap?
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2013, 08:31:20 PM »
Have patience aswell bud. Those guys that have the animals you seek have been in the hobby for a long time with countless hours and no doubt a lot of funds invested. I'm sure we all have our holy grail of snakes with many years in the waiting.

Offline Tafkas1

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Re: When is cheap too cheap?
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2013, 08:52:54 PM »
Certainly not having a shot at you Snow I know you've been on the lookout for some time and glad you finally got them. They were already in the system when you got them and I'd rather an avid collector like yourself get them as I think they'll eventually benefit the hobby as a whole.

Like I said I've heard rumours hopefully they're unsubstantiated. As we all know the Wheatbelt took a big hit with wild taking/poachers/slab collectors, etc, I've seen very isolated outcrops and been amazed at the level of destruction on them, its a bit concerning hearing that they are being specifically targeted in numbers again wether its true or not..

As for not being able to get them elsewhere I think maybe the trait isn't being passed on in great numbers   /whole clutches not resembling the tricoloured parent.

Offline Snowman

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Re: When is cheap too cheap?
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2013, 08:57:51 PM »
Certainly not having a shot at you Snow I know you've been on the lookout for some time and glad you finally got them. They were already in the system when you got them and I'd rather an avid collector like yourself get them as I think they'll eventually benefit the hobby as a whole.

Like I said I've heard rumours hopefully they're unsubstantiated. As we all know the Wheatbelt took a big hit with wild taking/poachers/slab collectors, etc, I've seen very isolated outcrops and been amazed at the level of destruction on them, its a bit concerning hearing that they are being specifically targeted in numbers again wether its true or not..

As for not being able to get them elsewhere I think maybe the trait isn't being passed on in great numbers   /whole clutches not resembling the tricoloured parent.

Yeah I didnt think you were having a shot at me. It's just created such a storm and I feel a bit out of sorts as to where I fit into the whole picture.
That's interesting that the trait isn't passed on to the whole clutch. I assumed two tri's would produce more tri's. I've always been told that the normal ones throw tri's though, they are from such isolated areas that they must share a lot of the same genetics. I know it also takes awhile for them to colour up which is a slow process. A friend bred some mixed locals and she had some interesting tri colours in a few. But took a long time to show colour. And I guess the wheatbelt is a general term, it's a huge area and I'm sure the colour morphs are different depending on location.

« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 09:02:49 PM by Snowman »

Offline Alchemy

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Re: When is cheap too cheap?
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2013, 09:18:22 PM »
Have patience aswell bud. Those guys that have the animals you seek have been in the hobby for a long time with countless hours and no doubt a lot of funds invested. I'm sure we all have our holy grail of snakes with many years in the waiting.
I walked away for this reason 7years combined total and could never get the animal I so dearly wanted. I offered stupid money up And still couldn't source the colours. So I'm going to ask around again see what I come up with.

 

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